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| Notching Kerfed Linings http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=3923 |
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| Author: | John How [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:00 am ] |
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What is correct is what works for you. I route my notches with a dremmel router and I rout thru the side. just be sure your rout will be covered by the binding. The end of you brace will be against the side or binding no matte rhow you do it so whether you rout thru the side or not, the result is the same. |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:05 am ] |
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Hesh I used to cut my notches with a small saw and chisel but switched to the dremel. I use a 1/16" bit with the dremel mounted in my StewMac base. I cut up to the side of the guitar but not through it. I used to cut through the side until I cut the notch to deep and it wasn't covered with the binding. I have heard people say that the binding could be pushed out if you cut through the side, but I have never seen it happen. I know a lot of great builders who do this all the time and I have never heard of it being a problem. To suspend the dremel or router you can use 2 pieces of plexiglass or plywood or whatever. It doesn't matter to much just make sure they are the same thickness. hope this helps Josh |
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| Author: | LanceK [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:06 am ] |
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i use a spiral down cut bit and a dremel base, both from Stewmac. I just balance it on the top of the edge. I don’t cut all the way through the sides, no reason, just don’t. |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:09 am ] |
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John Like I said I don't believe there is any problem with routing through the side, but my braces do not contact the side or binding. I trim the braces back so that there is a little bit of space between the end of the brace and the side. It is not much but just enough so that there is no contact. If you don't cut through the side you will have to trim all your braces to fit inside the pockets. Josh |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:15 am ] |
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First I locate the brace like most people do, than I cut on the line using a small flush cut saw (read thin kerf saw), than I route the area between the cuts to the depth of the brace, I use a lam trimmer with a 3/16" straight, double fluted bit (just what I have). The initial cut helps to remove only the area you want to remove from the linings. The trick is to make sure the brace is short enough to be covered by the binding and tall enough to actually do some good. There are those who don't run the brace under the lining and this would solve your problem but may create another in the long term. |
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| Author: | RussellR [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:33 am ] |
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Similiar to Lance, except I use a laminate trimmer. |
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| Author: | Bobc [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:49 am ] |
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There is a good article in issue 51 of Guitarmaker on this topic. I make that fine saw cut like Rod which prevents tear out and route thru the sides like John How. |
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| Author: | Rod True [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:15 am ] |
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The 0.1" brace end sould be fine Hesh. Just add up the components. Top Thickness 0.110-0.125" brace end 0.10" Total = 0.210-0.225" Binding Height needs to be 0.25" to make sure all is covered. Personaly, I go shorter on the brace end, I use 3/32 and I run it through the drum sander same as Mario to get all the brace ends the same height, also makes the ramping of the brace nice and smooth and symmetrical.  The picture is from Marios web site as I don't have a pic of the process, hope this is ok |
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| Author: | Arnt Rian [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 5:54 am ] |
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I like to keep my bindings pretty low, so I need to keep the braces inside the sides for that reason. Another reason is that they help to maintain body shape as the plates are glued on to the rims. |
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| Author: | Paul Schulte [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:24 am ] |
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Josh H. makes a good point, if you rout thru the sides, that you leave a small gap so the braces don't touch the bindings leaving room for expansion and contraction (I do the same thing). I don't know if there is enough movement of the wood to cause problems but I tend to think long term and hate warranty repair work. |
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| Author: | old man [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 6:54 am ] |
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I used a small saw and chisel on my first set of linings. They are mahogany and I had no problems. Ron |
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| Author: | Philip Perdue [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:09 am ] |
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Would using reverse nerfed linings be less susceptible to damage when notching for the braces? I don’t have any experience so I wouldn’t know. But the exterior of the reverse lining shows a larger surface area to work with. Just a thought. Philip |
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| Author: | letseatpaste [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:31 am ] |
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You can use a small square file to make the notch, too, if you're going to notch through the side anyway. Also, doesn't wood expand or contract in a direction perpendicular to the grain? How's it going to push on the binding? |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:38 am ] |
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Jon I think you are right on. I have never heard of the binding being pushed out by a brace expanding. Has anyone else? But I will continue to trim my braces so that they don't contact the side or binding. I find this little bit of space helpful when positioning the back and top for gluing among other things. I am really not worried about the expanding issue. josh |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:49 am ] |
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My thinking on this subject is I want the upper transvers and the lower xbraces to act as index pionts when the top is assembled. Therfore those points are through the side notches. The rest of my notches are to, but not through the side notches. I use a small saw to define the edges of the cut then finish with a dremel. I take great care to get the notches to be a nice mortise and tendon fit at the upper transvers and lower xbrace when the top is square to the rim and on center. This way the top just fits right in for glue-up with no chance of creeping off center. When I trim the top flush with the sides, after glue-up the braces are trimed flush as well (naturaly). I too have heard that the braces can push the binding out, but I have never known a luthier that has had this happen, and I have not had any issues. In a since I am doing the same thing a cabinetmaker does when he uses mortise and tendons to sqare fit perpendicular sides of an odd shaped frame togather. |
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| Author: | CarltonM [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 7:49 am ] |
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[QUOTE=letseatpaste] Also, doesn't wood expand or contract in a direction perpendicular to the grain? How's it going to push on the binding?[/QUOTE] I believe the problem occurs when the top (and the braces supporting it) shrinks and flattens in some areas. Since the braces don't shrink much along their length, the ends can then be forced outward, and affect the binding. |
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| Author: | TomS [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 10:04 pm ] |
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[QUOTE=Josh H] I have never heard of the binding being pushed out by a brace expanding. Has anyone else? josh[/QUOTE] I have a couple of ukuleles (Kamaka, Kumalae) that are unbound, but you can see where the ends of the back braces have pushed against the rims. In minor cases there is a bulge in the wood over the end of the brace. In the worst case a piece of the rim has actually broken out. As mentioned above, I think this is due more to the reaction of the back to humidity changes than it is to a change in length of the braces. |
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| Author: | Josh H [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:39 pm ] |
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Tom Now I can say I have heard of it causing problems. Thanks for sharing. Josh |
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| Author: | Matt Gage [ Tue Nov 29, 2005 11:52 pm ] |
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I have never heard of the binding being pushed out by a brace expanding. Has anyone else? you bet! bracing does in fact grow and shrink lengthwise. I had a back go from convex to concave once. this was back when I was clueless about RH but still it taught me how extreme the effects of RH can be. Like Josh, I keep the brace ends just shy of the side. this makes cutting a clean notch much harder and I almost never get it perfect, so I have become good at repairing the tiny pieces of kerfed lining that split out during the cut. Matt |
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| Author: | L. Presnall [ Wed Nov 30, 2005 12:39 am ] |
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For a while I was chiseling out the kerfing where the brace end would go, then setting the rim assembly on the back/top and gluing a piece of kerfing back down on top of the brace end (sort of like the tentallone approach)...but, I didn't like the kerfing ends being lower than the rest along the back braces, so I started notching...now, I'm considering going back to the old way, but trimming the kerf ends to be the same length as the rest of the kerfing... |
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| Author: | Mattia Valente [ Wed Nov 30, 2005 1:35 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Matt Gage] I have never heard of the binding being pushed out by a brace expanding. Has anyone else? you bet! bracing does in fact grow and shrink lengthwise. I had a back go from convex to concave once. this was back when I was clueless about RH but still it taught me how extreme the effects of RH can be. Like Josh, I keep the brace ends just shy of the side. this makes cutting a clean notch much harder and I almost never get it perfect, so I have become good at repairing the tiny pieces of kerfed lining that split out during the cut. Matt [/QUOTE] I think there are even pictures of binding being pushed out by bracing on the Larrivee website, on the page about the importance of humidity control. Used to be, anyway. I've seen several isntruments with that problem swing by on the MIMF.. |
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| Author: | letseatpaste [ Wed Nov 30, 2005 2:28 am ] |
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Then I'd guess it's more of an issue of the top shrinking while the brace stays the same length, than the brace expanding lengthwise. (?) So does anyone not tuck the end of the brace into the lining at all? I like to learn things the hard way, so on my first back I've braced (outside of class) recently, I made the braces taper to nothing right before it meets the lining. |
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